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14 responses to 'The LogoWorks controversy rages on'.

1. Prepressology - Posted on August 22nd, 2005 at 9:27 pm.
2. Prepressology - Posted on August 23rd, 2005 at 2:06 pm.
3. Prepressology: Where the Worlds of Graphic Design and Print Collide! - Posted on August 24th, 2005 at 10:12 am.

1. 1 shannon
   Posted on August 21st, 2005 at 2:02 pm. About 'The LogoWorks controversy rages on'.
   

   Thank you for all the work you are putting into this!

2. 2 Chris
   Posted on August 22nd, 2005 at 1:19 am. About 'The LogoWorks controversy rages on'.
   

   Chris,

   With all of your research and the other blogs I’ve discovered, this really might turn in our favor.

   Let’s only hope that it at least brings to light the apparent copyright infringement that has occurred and also builds a case for exploiting these young designers.

   Chris(the OTHER Chris)

3. 3 Patrick Stolk-Ramaker
   Posted on August 22nd, 2005 at 1:22 am. About 'The LogoWorks controversy rages on'.
   

   Awesome suject, Thanks for the email Chris. I made a point of throwing this up on my blog as well (great letter you wrote too!)

   What an Issue this is, I feel bad for the companies who shelled out $500 thinking they were getting a great deal, and in the end just got screwed.

   I guess it wasn’t a good idea that they went with logoworks.com instead of an “other design firm” who charges “$10,000-$20,000″ for one logo.

4. 4 Kerry
   Posted on August 22nd, 2005 at 1:55 pm. About 'The LogoWorks controversy rages on'.
   

   I am very angry about this. They are not only harming the graphic design industry, but sweat-shopping those designers who don’t know any better (I hope that’s the case).

5. 5 Simon S.
   Posted on August 22nd, 2005 at 3:43 pm. About 'The LogoWorks controversy rages on'.
   

   Wow - these guys are bastards. On the fron page of their web site, it claims

   “Satisfaction Guaranteed - If you don’t love your logo, we will refund your money. (see details)”

   However, if you check out the ’see details’ part -

   “At any time before requesting your first round of revisions, you can request to have all work stopped and your money refunded (less a $75 service fee), according to the terms of service.”

   Hardly a ‘refund’. I’m really starting to dislike these people.

6. 6 Jake
   Posted on August 22nd, 2005 at 9:07 pm. About 'The LogoWorks controversy rages on'.
   

   Indeed it does rage on. I am going to post again about this in a bit. I just think it’s appalling we haven’t heard a peep out of them yet.

7. 7 Jeff Kearl
   Posted on August 23rd, 2005 at 1:35 am. About 'The LogoWorks controversy rages on'.
   

   Actually we have been talking to both Chris and Von Glitschka who both contacted me regarding these posts. I’ve agreed to be interviewed by telephone or to fly Chris and Von out to our office on my dime so that they can get better acquainted with our operation in person. I’m waiting to hear back from them.

   For the record, we have hundreds of designers that use our system to pick up design projects either for full-time work or as additional work to backfill their other projects. These designers are not college students being ‘exploited’. While there are a few young designers that we have admitted to the system most of our designers have 7-10 years experience. In addition, every designer must be recommended from someone in our system, must fill out an application and must submit their portfolio. We generally interview the designer by phone and accept less than 10% of the designers that apply to work in our system. We have designers that work at many of the top agencies in the world and have designed Fortune 500 logos. And while the designer compensation system cited in the WSJ might strike many designers as low or unfair, we have many contract designers making $40-65K per year. Just check your AIGA/Aquent salary survey guide for 2005 and you’ll see that on balance our wages are quite competitive with general industry pay rates.

   In terms of copied logos, as was already mentioned we have a strict policy against it. Every designer must certify every time they upload something to our system that it is their original work. We have about 30 designers in our office that spend time reviewing each and every image to help prevent logo theft and trademark issues. Whenever we have discovered theft, we have terminated our relationship with the offending designer immediately. We also carry a large media insurance policy in case a stolen logo ever gets past our QA process and is sold to a customer (so you can all stop worrying about how we’re going to get sued into oblivion).

   In this case, none of the logos cited as copied in this post were ever sold to a customer. They were only concepts shown to customers to help identity what style of design the company was looking for. Someone in our marketing department found those designs in our database and used them in a marketing brochure for our portfolio. Obviously, we’ll remove them from future versions.

   Lastly, our company has served over 30,000 customers. Our design community has created over 250,000 unique, custom logos. Is it possible that a handful of the logos that were created were ripped? Yes, it is possible. The sheer volume of design work we do makes quality assurance challenging. That said, LogoWorks is by no means the only design company with this problem. Many design agencies (including some of the best) have had to terminate designers for ripping other peoples work. The problem has nothing to do with the company. It has to do with dishonest designers. When you employ as many designers as we do there is a greater probability that we might get an occasional bad apple.

   In my marketing career I have worked with many agencies local and national and I have never met an agency that has as rigorous a process as LogoWorks for policing theft and mark infringement. In fact, I know many agencies have no process at all. Asserting that using someone local solves this problem is rediculous. The median graphic design agency in the US has 4 employees. While I know that some small shops do their proper trademark work, many are streched for resources and just don’t.

   Lastly, I can understand how some designers are offended by the prices we charge because they have worked so hard to create value in design work and they argue that we are undermining those efforts. Let me assure you that if you deliver value there will always being a long line of customers willing to pay for it. Our prototypical customer would never even go to an agency. They are choosing between bad clip art templates or something they designed themselves. We bridge the gap between free and agency prices. We don’t claim to offer “brand strategy” or other consultative services. We don’t do in-person meetings. We don’t spend hours in a conference room brainstorming about brand positioning. Designers that do offer all of these services will always have a place in the market. You just have to realize that while they are important, some customers will simply never have the money or desire to pay for them. They just want fast, low-cost design that reflects their personality as a small business owner. To them that is quality. The fact that over 98% of our 30,000+ customers tell us they would recommend our service to another small business owner tells me that we understand what our customers want.

   Jeff Kearl
   Chief Marketing Officer
   Arteis, inc.

8. 8 Kerry
   Posted on August 23rd, 2005 at 10:18 am. About 'The LogoWorks controversy rages on'.
   

   In response to Jeff Kearl’s comments:

   I not sure “take the money and run” is a good business practice. Just because a customer is not aware of what an effective logo entails, is not a good reason to exploit that lack of knowledge for profit.

   You seem to justify your approach by saying that customers, “…just want fast, low-cost design that reflects their personality as a small business owner.” But do you care that this approach will actually help their business or not? Apparently not, because it is about filling a marketing niche — people who just want a logo for a low-cost solution. You make the money, and move on.

   Contrary to your belief, it does erode the graphic design industry, because it creates the impression that little thought is involved in logo design, and designers are out to produce a product for a buck, not a business partnership that works for the benefit of both parties. (At the very least offer that as a disclaimer when customers come to you.)

   Last, I wonder about your assessement that some designers are “making $40-65K per year” doing this stuff. How many logos do they have to design for that salary? At least 1300 logos a year! Or 4 logos a day, everyday! And this is assuming every logo makes at least the $50 a logo that you actually offer them.

9. 9 Patrick Stolk-Ramaker
   Posted on August 23rd, 2005 at 12:09 pm. About 'The LogoWorks controversy rages on'.
   

   Well said Kerry, I included your comment in my post regarding their response.

10. 10 Simon S.
    Posted on August 23rd, 2005 at 12:28 pm. About 'The LogoWorks controversy rages on'.
    

    — In addition, every designer must be recommended from someone in our system, must fill out an application and must submit their portfolio

    According to your own recruiting web site, this portfolio consists of two design samples. Hardly what anyone would consider a ‘portfolio’. According to your position, you can’t even be sure if these pieces are legit, original or designed by the person submitting them.

    — And while the designer compensation system cited in the WSJ might strike many designers as low or unfair, we have many contract designers making $40-65K per year. Just check your AIGA/Aquent salary survey guide for 2005 and you’ll see that on balance our wages are quite competitive with general industry pay rates.”

    It would be interesting to know what % of your ‘designers’ actually make these figures. Also - AIGA/Aquent does not even deal with a $25 per-pop model that is the backbone of your company. I’m of the opinion that AIGA would not agree that your rates are ‘quite competitive’. Since you are so fond of quoting these organizations to market your services, perhaps they might wish to comment?

    — We also carry a large media insurance policy in case a stolen logo ever gets past our QA process and is sold to a customer (so you can all stop worrying about how we’re going to get sued into oblivion).”

    Nice for you. However, this is not the issue. The issue is that YOUR clients trust YOU to supply them with original artwork and designs that they can LEGALLY use as their logo. This is despite your rather all-encompassing disclaimers and legal jargon. Regardless of whether or not you’re legally protected from this - which indicates that you KNOW that this is a potential problem with your basic business model.

    — In this case, none of the logos cited as copied in this post were ever sold to a customer. They were only concepts shown to customers to help identity what style of design the company was looking for.”

    Pardon? This is your explanation/justification of using OTHER DESIGNER’S work? So that YOUR clients can request someone else’s carefully developed style (which your designers then happily copy?) If you’re concerned about ethics, wouldn’t it behoove you to recommend DESIGNER A, if DESIGNER A’s style is what your client is looking for? And why, dear God, don’t you show your clients work from YOUR archives, rather than scouring the internet for material that can be appropriated, if not exactly, but in terms of style. And if these logos are somebody else’s concepts, why the hell are they in YOUR portfolio in the first place? A great deal of this ongoing discussion is not about what you ‘can’ get away with, or what your’re legally insured against. It is about ethics and responsible business practises. Showcasing OTHER people’s work as some sort of ’style barometer’ is neither.

    — Someone in our marketing department found those designs in our database and used them in a marketing brochure for our portfolio.”

    So you’re telling me that you have a DATABASE of OTHER designers work so that you can show it to YOUR clients? Here’s how this generally works - my DATABASE of designs (usually called a portfolio) contains MY work. Are you telling me that you actually use OTHER designer’s work to show to your clients, in order to a) gain their business and b) to develop their logo? Wow.

    — Is it possible that a handful of the logos that were created were ripped? Yes, it is possible.”

    Ahm. That has been the point of the discussion. At least on this we can agree.

    — The sheer volume of design work we do makes quality assurance challenging.”

    And this is somehow the design communitiy’s problem? Your clients? The designers whose work is featured in your ‘Database”? You’re too big to assure that your designs are original? Can’t remember reading that on the firont page of your web site.

    — When you employ as many designers as we do there is a greater probability that we might get an occasional bad apple.”

    At least you agree that hiring practises influence the potential of this happening. Now, combine this with your business model and it practically gurantees it will happen. The amazing thing to me is that on your web site you trash-talk FREELANCERS everywhere. Some examples -

    “Everyone has an uncle’s cousin’s brother-in-law that does freelance design. While they might be very skilled as a designer and produce something professional, it might not be what you like. In addition, since you know this person you will probably be stuck with the company logo for a long time.”

    “Freelance Designers - A friend of a friend can create your logo. If they charge by the hour, this can get very expensive. And there’s no quality guarantee”

    However, FREELANCERS are what make up your company’s delivery system! It’s also not very apparent (from your web site anyway) that you utilize freelance designers in the first place. And as a PR guy, I’m sure you’ll agree that your promo copy is designed to hide this very fact.

    — They are choosing between bad clip art templates or something they designed themselves. We bridge the gap between free and agency prices. We don’t claim to offer “brand strategy” or other consultative services. We don’t do in-person meetings. We don’t spend hours in a conference room brainstorming about brand positioning.”

    Don’t remember seeing that on your web site. What I do see is

    “Agency Quality Work At Unbeatable Prices
    According to the Graphic Artists Guild Handbook of Pricing Guidelines, companies with annual revenues of less than $1M pay between $2,000 to $10,000 for a company logo. Now you can get a company logo from LogoWorks for only $299. And the designers on your project are the same designers you’d get at almost any design shop or ad agency. ”

    You’re comparing yourselves to people who DO “spend hours in a conference room brainstorming about brand positioning.” The only difference you boast about is HOW MUCH YOU CHARGE.

    And that’s the very heart of this debate.

11. 11 Jeff Turford
    Posted on October 16th, 2006 at 3:24 am. About 'The LogoWorks controversy rages on'.
    

    I know this is very after-the-fact but I came across this conversation and as an employee of Arteis, I thought I’d comment…

    Your arguments are warranted in part. In my opinion if you want to make an amazing logo, you need to research, you need to try, and fail. You need to recompose, re-evaluate and refine. An extremely affective logo should not be created in minutes. However don’t look to Arteis/Logoworks.com with discontent, their practice is not detrimental to the design community, you need to see it for what it is. Logoworks makes logos mostly for people with horrible logos, their old logos you wouldn’t believe how bad they. These people do not have the money to spend on thorough logos, they don’t want to give their hard earned 10k for a designer to create a thorough logo when they could have an adequate logo for 500$, and why should they. Just because your logo was created by an Advertising Firm doesn’t mean the designer is any good, it also doesn’t mean that his or her design will be very affective. Logoworks is a lucrative business, it makes money by fulfilling a need, that need is low cost logos.

    Don’t bring pay into it, on Arteis making logos I get paid 40$USD an hour, most of the time I make more. The pay is very adequate, and I’m just a freelance not even an in-house designer.

    Logoworks isn’t trying to plagiarize either, designers (like yourselves) are ripping these designs and Arteis is trying to stop them. What benefit would Arteis have in a ripped logo? Their hiring practice is fine, it makes ones work speak for itself. Also Arteis uses a scoring system (which has not been mentioned) that rewards designers on their work. If your score is 80-90 you are at expert level and are able to pick up expert projects worth more money. 30-80 for medium and 0-30 entry. After you submit a logo it is marked by other designers in the Arteis community, if your designs are ranked high you receive points towards your score and if they are low, the opposite of the latter is true. This system moves good designers to the top and poor designers to entry level. If you are not a good designer you will have a low score and your relationship with Arteis will be terminated, I know people who have been fired simply because their designs were not good enough.

    Arteis has made me a better designer and it has made me more proficient with Adobe Illustrator. Arteis antagonists should let this one go and consider these points: The nike logo was created by a design student for little money and is among the most recognized brands on the planet. The logo for “The source: by circuit city” is an awful logo probably created for an obscene amount of money. The city of Toronto spent millions on their new Toronto unlimited branding they hired a big Ad firm and people are saying its ripped from London, Englands branding which was also called “London Unlimited” and many designers hate it. Many of the logos created for clients get sent around a board room and marketing execs will throw in their two cents many times only to necessitate themselves and their position. If you ask the average person they probably wouldn’t be able to tell you what the Cummings logo looks like, or who designed it.

    I would love for every company in the world, big or small to have an experienced, knowledgeable and technically competent designer create their logo for thousands if not millions, that would mean more money for me… but that isn’t the way it works, except it or move to another venue of art where business and art don’t mix, might I suggest painting.

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